Up

[GaTechGal]

Really loved UP. So much better than what's come down the pike from Pixar lately. Loved that it was a wonderful story with no preachy message.

And I think that the default male thing with Pixar just balances out Disney's default princess girl thing. Let's face it - should it REALLY matter what sex a character is as long as they're good? Russell could have just as easily been a Girl Scout and Carl and old lady. And Kevin didn't have any lines, but the fact that she WAS a girl was important to the story.

[BRWombat]

Really loved UP. So much better than what's come down the pike from Pixar lately. Loved that it was a wonderful story with no preachy message.

And I think that the default male thing with Pixar just balances out Disney's default princess girl thing. Let's face it - should it REALLY matter what sex a character is as long as they're good? Russell could have just as easily been a Girl Scout and Carl and old lady. And Kevin didn't have any lines, but the fact that she WAS a girl was important to the story.

Also, let's not forget Ellie -- while she was only featured in the prologue to the story, she's the driving force behind the entire story, and her spirit seems present throughout their adventures. I rarely come away from an animated feature so touched by a single character, wanting to know more about them.

Masterful storytellers, those Pixar guys.

[Amphigorey]

Really loved UP. So much better than what's come down the pike from Pixar lately. Loved that it was a wonderful story with no preachy message.

And I think that the default male thing with Pixar just balances out Disney's default princess girl thing. Let's face it - should it REALLY matter what sex a character is as long as they're good? Russell could have just as easily been a Girl Scout and Carl and old lady. And Kevin didn't have any lines, but the fact that she WAS a girl was important to the story.

You're right that gender shouldn't matter, but the reality is that it does matter. That's why we still need feminism; to call out instances of inequality and discrimination when they happen. Pixar, unfortunately, has a girl problem, and they should be called on it.

And you're right - Russell could have been Rachel, and Carl could have been Ellie. So why weren't they? Why is the default with Pixar always male? Females are much rarer than they should be. Why is that?

Here's what I mean about their girl problem: They have never had a story that was truly about the girl and driven by the girl. They've had girl characters - but that's not remotely the same thing. Even Ellie, who was clearly super cool, was there as something that happened to Carl, not quite as a character in her own right. Her story was not the important one in "Up." She was there to make us care for Carl, and understand what he was going through. Now, I'm not saying that Carl's story wasn't a good one; I thought "Up" was a fabulous movie, one of Pixar's best. That said, let's look at the rest of Pixar's catalogue to see what their track record on gender equality is.

Another Pixar movie that gets cited when this comes up is "The Incredibles." Yes, Elastigirl is powerful and sympathetic and cool - but again, the heart of the story is not hers. It's Mr. Incredible's. Elastigirl is important, but the story is of a middleaged man having a crisis; it's not about Elastigirl.

"Toy Story" is obviously a boy's story, despite the presence of Jessie in the sequel.

"A Bug's Life" - again, a story about a boy ant. There are a few female insects, but not as many as you'd expect (leaving aside the issue that almost all ants in a colony are female anyway... but I'm not expecting biological realism here).

"Monsters, Inc." - a little girl is central to the story, but at its core the story is about Sulley and Mike, not Boo. She is there to make Sulley and Mike care about her; if the story were about her, it would have been told from her point of view. Also, where are the female monsters? There were only two that I remember; Roz (the undercover slug) and Celia, Mike's girlfriend.

"Cars" - don't EVEN get me started.

"Wall-E" - better than most, actually, as the robots aren't exactly gendered, although it seems clear that we are meant to read Wall-E as male and Eve as female. I read a very cute blog post a while back that posited Wall-E as butch and Eve as femme, which I thought was a charming interpretation.

"Finding Nemo" - has a female sidekick, but again is a story about two boys, a father and a son. More female characters than most (several of the dentist's tank fish were girls), but still uneven.

"Ratatouille" - an entire colony of rats, and NO GIRLS. Hello??

Mind you, I love Pixar. I really do. They're wonderful storytellers, and they understand that animation isn't just about the special effects. I think they produce art, not just entertainment. However, because I like them so much, I think they deserve critical consideration. I don't bother to do this kind of thing with Dreamworks, for instance. And like I said earlier, I don't think they are doing this deliberately. I think it just does not occur to them to tell female-centric stories. Most, if not all, of Pixar's core story team are men.

Individually, the movies aren't problematic. It's only when they are taken together and you see that a pattern emerges that it becomes a problem that there are so few female characters. Does that make sense?

Tangentially, I can only think of a few fantasy / children's movies that are told from the point of view of a girl, with a girl as the hero (I'm not counting Disney animated movies here, since that's a whole nother ball of wax): "Labyrinth," "Coraline," and "Mirrormask." Interestingly, two of them were written by Neil Gaiman.

[ktulu]

Please note, the female characters tend to be the smart ones, whereas the male characters are bumbling fools who have a lesson to learn.

Would you complain if it were the reverse?

[Amphigorey]

Please note, the female characters tend to be the smart ones, whereas the male characters are bumbling fools who have a lesson to learn.

Would you complain if it were the reverse?

I complain about that, too!

As it happens, that phenomenon supports my point. If the female characters are smart, while the males are bumbling fools who have a lesson to learn, then the story is told about the males, because the lesson-learning IS the story. It's not interesting to watch somebody who's already perfect.

[BRWombat]

I complain about that, too!

As it happens, that phenomenon supports my point. If the female characters are smart, while the males are bumbling fools who have a lesson to learn, then the story is told about the males, because the lesson-learning IS the story. It's not interesting to watch somebody who's already perfect.

You make a good point. The Little Mermaid is still one of my all-time favorites. It has a definitely female-centered story, with a very flawed heroine who matures a bit.

But a question -- and I don't mean to be provocative, I'm honestly wanting to learn: do you notice these things so that they bother you during the movie, or do you think about them afterward? Because, honestly, I go to a film, am entertained (or not), but I don't analyze it while I'm watching it for its social messages, or inclusiveness or lack of it.

[DisneyMom]

I complain about that, too!

As it happens, that phenomenon supports my point. If the female characters are smart, while the males are bumbling fools who have a lesson to learn, then the story is told about the males, because the lesson-learning IS the story. It's not interesting to watch somebody who's already perfect.

I don't disagree on anything, just agree that women are nearly perfect ;)

Except we're not. Imperfect women just most often get labeled as witches or martyrs yada yada. Centuries later we (everyone) are still going to be at odds because,well, men and women ARE different. Everyone just needs to recognize their own value.

Then maybe filmmakers will recognize that women are just as interesting. :)

[ktulu]

I think it is easier to pick on men, as we tend to have the ability to laugh at ourselves, whereas women would be protesting, marching on the gates of pixar in a hormone induced rage.

That said, time to run! :D:

Darph, start the van and give me a beer!

[DisneyMom]

I think it is easier to pick on men, as we tend to have the ability to laugh at ourselves, whereas women would be protesting, marching on the gates of pixar in a hormone induced rage.

That said, time to run! :D:

Darph, start the van and give me a beer!

haha, Ktulu!
Enjoy the years you have left before EVERYONE IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD STARTS CYCLING SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[ktulu]

haha, Ktulu!
Enjoy the years you have left before EVERYONE IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD STARTS CYCLING SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Two words, man cave :D:

At least I have some sort of dominion over two of them...okay not really.