Is chivalry really dead?

[YANXWIN]

We just returned from an amazing trip to the world. We had a great time and, even though our plans changed on an hourly basis, it was still one of the best trips we have ever taken.

That being said, have we lost all sense of manners and respect in this world? I was raised in a home where you look to help the other person and be aware of the concequences of your actions. Always looking to see if you can help someone else. I watched more men stay seated and let women and little children stand and "hold on for dear life" on buses than I can count. I know that there are reasons why a man needs to sit, health or holding a sleeping child, but that aside, I was disturbed.

Just because you happen to get on the bus before some other people does not mean that you can't jump up, yes I said jump, and make sure that the women of this world are taken care of. I figure I took almost 30 bus rides on our trip, and only 1 time did I see a bus full of people and not one man sitting. Where has chivalry gone? Standing when a woman enters or exits a room, holding doors open, making sure they have a place to sit. The women in our lives are angels and we should treat them as such. If that's old fashioned, then I am guilty as charged your honor. I was embarrassed to witness the lack of respect shown to these beautiful creatures.

Was that too much of a rant? I have more but I guess I'm going overboard.

[Goofyernmost]

We just returned from an amazing trip to the world. We had a great time and, even though our plans changed on an hourly basis, it was still one of the best trips we have ever taken.

That being said, have we lost all sense of manners and respect in this world? I was raised in a home where you look to help the other person and be aware of the concequences of your actions. Always looking to see if you can help someone else. I watched more men stay seated and let women and little children stand and "hold on for dear life" on buses than I can count. I know that there are reasons why a man needs to sit, health or holding a sleeping child, but that aside, I was disturbed.

Just because you happen to get on the bus before some other people does not mean that you can't jump up, yes I said jump, and make sure that the women of this world are taken care of. I figure I took almost 30 bus rides on our trip, and only 1 time did I see a bus full of people and not one man sitting. Where has chivalry gone? Standing when a woman enters or exits a room, holding doors open, making sure they have a place to sit. The women in our lives are angels and we should treat them as such. If that's old fashioned, then I am guilty as charged your honor. I was embarrassed to witness the lack of respect shown to these beautiful creatures.

Was that too much of a rant? I have more but I guess I'm going overboard.

The one thing that changed all that was the woman's movement. Before I get shot, I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with women striving for equality, that's a given! However, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If woman rightfully feel that there should be equality of the sexes, then I am left wondering why one would then turn around and expect "special" treatment due to their gender.

Give me one specific reason why a woman cannot standup on a bus as well as a man.* Basically, as far as I have been able to tell over my last 64 years, woman are as strong, have more endurance and generally are more physically fit then their male counterparts. So, why wouldn't a woman get up from her seat to let a man sit down? What would be the actual difference?

People holding a small child, male or female, might warrant the giving of a seat, but otherwise, there is no longer a specific reason for doing so. Age and disability also play a factor, but, not in any gender related way. Chivalry stemmed from a time when women were considered weak, unable to care for themselves and needed to be protected. I'm afraid that ship has sailed and with it a lot of old fashioned, degrading baggage. I'm sure it was nice to be "pampered" but in this life, you really cannot have everything. If you want a seat, then you must get on first, that's the new way of the world. Chivalry carried with it a number of perks directed at one gender. Chivalry also carried with it a number of demeaning and degrading attitudes. I would think that equality is a much better thing.

*The same would apply to why it is more difficult for a woman to put a toilet seat down as it is for a man to put it up? And do women, when leaving the bathroom put the seat back up to ease the burden of the man? But that's another thread, in another place, at another time!

[WEDFan]

If not dead, then certainly on life support. I can't remember the last time I served my liege lord in valour and faith, and, frankly, if I were to disdain pecuniary awards, my employer would be delighted, but eating and having a roof over my head would be troublesome. :D:

Yes, I'm a history geek, but I do know what you mean. You do seem to be focused on applying courtesy to women, though. I hold doors for men and women alike. I'll offer my seat to anyone who looks like they need it, but by the same token I don't automatically offer it to a woman who is often better able to stand than I. As Goofyernmost pointed out, the woman's movement happened and I think that is good and just, but it does go both ways. The reason women were deferred to in so many practices arose from the belief that they were physically inferior (well, and mentally, too) to men and needed extra care and help. Men would also shield women from the trials and complexities of finance, property ownership, etc.

I do think that courtesy of all sorts has been diminished and I am saddened by that. I do my best to keep that from dying, and would love to see more do the same.

[YANXWIN]

Points well taken. I love the equality that has come about and I support that. Maybe it is just more of a respect issue. I try and be as kind as I can to all I come in contact with. I am still of the opinion that men should make sure the women in this world are shown as much respect as possible and if I have to put a toilet seat down for the rest of my life and stand and offer my seat to a woman, then I will continue to do so. I am in no way saying that women are superior to men or men are superior to women, but we as men shold be gentlemen and wear that title with distinction. That means respect and there are small ways we can show that respect. My wife is Cinderella to me and I will treat her as such. I also would show that smae level of respect to other women whith whom I come in contact.

[Goofyernmost]

I do think that courtesy of all sorts has been diminished and I am saddened by that. I do my best to keep that from dying, and would love to see more do the same.

And doing it that way is way more meaningful then just following the old rules of Chivalry. Now when it happens it is done from the heart and not just following some rules previously set down and have no idea what it was all about. It's not completely dead and probably never will be, but it should no longer be expected. Mens rolls have changed dramatically over the last 30 years. It's confusing and sometimes unfair. We no longer know what is expected of us, but we do know that what we do on an individual basis has meaning, at least to us.

[TiggerHappy]

I see guys giving up seats for women on the CM shuttles all the time.

[Goofyernmost]

Points well taken. I love the equality that has come about and I support that. Maybe it is just more of a respect issue. I try and be as kind as I can to all I come in contact with. I am still of the opinion that men should make sure the women in this world are shown as much respect as possible and if I have to put a toilet seat down for the rest of my life and stand and offer my seat to a woman, then I will continue to do so. I am in no way saying that women are superior to men or men are superior to women, but we as men shold be gentlemen and wear that title with distinction. That means respect and there are small ways we can show that respect. My wife is Cinderella to me and I will treat her as such. I also would show that smae level of respect to other women whith whom I come in contact.

But in thinking that way, without knowing it, one automatically says I must be better than a woman. I should be the one that graciously allows a woman the assistance that I do not receive back, because I am bigger, stronger and more able to take care of myself. I must look after someone that I consider more fragile.

I know that is not going through your mind at the time, but it does send a signal that some will pick up on and resent. As I said, the role of a male in our society has been blurred. We don't know what is or should be expected. We equate recognizing an imagined need with being a Gentleman, but is that what it really is? Shouldn't it be more about fighting for equal pay and equal power in all aspects of our lives, instead of deciding that once I have given up my seat on the bus, I have covered my obligations in that area and made the woman feel good and special, like Cinderella!

The last campaign struck a nerve with me. One of the only things that Mr. R. said that was close to recognizing a problem was when he stated that, if we want women in the workforce we need to be more flexible in the workplace and allow for time to take care of family matters. Well, he, and I'm choking on this as I say it, was HALF right. If we want more women in the workplace we must allow flexible time for both male and female. Otherwise one is saying, I know that it's tough to balance a career with raising a family and that problem, ladies, is all yours. Again, we, as males are willing to sacrifice the careers of woman by singling them out as the only care givers available. Both sides created the family, both sides should have equal responsibility in dealing with the problems associated with that decision.

I have two daughters and I was always concerned about how they would manage to survive in the world that only a few years ago was completely dominated my men. I tried my best to always reinforce the thought that NOTHING would stand in their way if they tried hard enough to get it. Gender, was never discussed in these situation. I guess, I feel strongly about this. I was always willing to help them, out of love...never out of an obligation to gender.

[felinefan]

I use the OCTA buses constantly, and there have been many times where both men and women have offered me a seat when it was SRO, but I'm not sure if they thought I was pregnant--being fat with an hourglass figure can do that, and it doesn't help that I look younger than my 56 years--or if it was out of fear of getting clonked by the steel water bottle I have hanging off my right hip. :D:

I have opened doors for either sex, and have had both sexes open doors for me. I appreciate this. But not all times in history were women considered weak and inferior. In the Middle Ages, when a man who owned his own business was looking for a wife, a pretty face was not his main criterion. He looked for a woman who had a good head for business, because with business trips lasting 8 or more months, he needed someone who could deal with employees, communicate with managers and vendors, and keep the books. A married woman could own her own business, but only if she had her husband's permission. Why? Because she needed to be able to coordinate her duties in her husband's business as well as her own. It was just common sense. Of course, she couldn't compete with her husband, but that was a given.

[DisneyMom]

Chivalry? I'd settle for people not so anxious to push thru a packed crowd at the Castle Lighting to not physically attack.....One Person thought that pushing thru with a stroller was going to happen until I reminded him he was now on top of my ankle,another person -a woman apparently-clawed her nails into my back as we were slowly shuffling away. There was no prior contact with these people in case anyone was wondering,they were just people who thought their rights somehow superceded all others and I happened to be in their way. Lesson Learned, I'm not going to ever get myself packed in anymore.

[Goofyernmost]

Chivalry? I'd settle for people not so anxious to push thru a packed crowd at the Castle Lighting to not physically attack.....One Person thought that pushing thru with a stroller was going to happen until I reminded him he was now on top of my ankle,another person -a woman apparently-clawed her nails into my back as we were slowly shuffling away. There was no prior contact with these people in case anyone was wondering,they were just people who thought their rights somehow superceded all others and I happened to be in their way. Lesson Learned, I'm not going to ever get myself packed in anymore.

While I certainly can understand your feeling that way, I can't help but think that they just won. I know it's difficult but when someone stands their ground and doesn't allow bully's to get what they want it goes a long way towards introducing reality into their sorry little lives. However, like I said, I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to experience it again.

I wish Disney could get the message that if they don't start making an attempt to stop that kind of behavior, it will, in the long run, cost them dearly.