Stupid Guest Tricks

screnwriter wrote:I do think there is an absolute here that trancends opinion. And I feel that the absolute is that going into someone else's business and taking that business away from them while confusing their customers is wrong and should not be done.

Actually, I agree with both of these points.

But neither Jim's tours nor mine are anything like Disney's official tours, as I think those who've taken both will agree. If you're selling something different, then I don't see where you're taking business away.

Confusing someone else's customers is indeed wrong, and as I posted earlier, I have to fault Jim for not checking who was on his tour. A group size of 20 clearly contributed to that point.

But let's not charge Jim with an offense for making money off Disney. There are half a dozen companies publishing guidebooks (I work for one of them). Wheelchair and ECV rentals, off-property hotels, nutz even sunscreen suppliers are making a dime of the Mouse. Call that wrong and see how easy it is to get a taxi from the airport!

I believe that there is a difference from making money from the *existance* of another company, and taking money away from them. (If the Mouse was really smart, they'd hire Jim and I to give such tours and take a nice fat cut of the action for themselves!)

I won't get into a fight over this issue with you Zazu, as I happen to have enjoyed your posts over the time this site has been here.

What I don't understand is why Jim Hill feels it's o.k. to run his "business" on someone else's property. That's the big issue here. I think I've told my share of stories with friends and family visiting from out of town while I was there. However, as others have pointed out, it was with a teeny group of people - and I wasn't profiting off of it. I see all sorts of rationalizing going on, but at the end of the day, companies are either working with Disney and have the company's permission to conduct their business inside the park, or an outside business is trying to do things quietly without Disney's knowledge, which doesn't seem right. It seems pretty clear to me.
Are we so driven to get what we want that we are willing to ignore property rights, intellectual and otherwise? It's a question of ethics, and Jim Hill doesn't seem to have any from what I'm reading on this thread. I could be wrong - he could be a solid citizen, but that doesn't make how he operated his tours justifiable. My kid is not allowed to set up a fruit punch stand on your lawn next to your kid's lemonade stand without your permission or knowledge - how much more elemental does it get?

BirdMom wrote:I won't get into a fight over this issue with you Zazu, as I happen to have enjoyed your posts over the time this site has been here.

Oh good. I never wanted a fight over this topic either. I mostly just wanted to offer a bit of perspective from someone who knows Jim and has taken his tours. I guess I'm also a little sensitive about it because of the tours I give folks.

What I don't understand is why Jim Hill feels it's o.k. to run his "business" on someone else's property. That's the big issue here.

Okay, so it's not a matter of profiting from Disney's existance, it's a matter of doing so on Disney's dirt. That's a reasonable charge.

Disney permits a good number of companies to do business on their turf, with and without formal permission (myself included). They even offer referrals to businesses with whom they don't have a formal business relationship. (Care Medical, for one.) I think this only became an issue for Disney when Jim's tour *interfered* with their business by permitting three lost guests to join his tour. Without that mistake on Jim's part, I seriously doubt that Disney would have bothered to object.

One of the challenges faced by folks like Jim is that Disney doesn't have policies on this sort of thing. Not even internal, secret policies -- I've checked. This leaves such folks to the whim of the staff on duty at the time, who are granted wide latitude in deciding what is and isn't acceptable.

I guess this is what annoys me most about this sort of situation; the random quality of it. Jim mistakenly includes three civilians in his tour and gets busted, but Brazilian tour leaders annoy and harass thousands and are welcome to return.

I don't mind rules, I actually *like* to know what the rules are and where the limits. Had Jim known that such tours were banned, I'm sure he never would have tried them. Jim's the sort to respect rules when he knows what they are.

So I guess most of this issue boils down to problems caused by the "Carrousel of Policy," and the difficulty of playing by unwritten rules.

... but none of us have ever seen that sort of thing at Disney, right?

As someone who has followed Jim Hill's writings since his Mouseplanet.com days, I feel I should at least defend a portion of his character.

Yes, his writings come off as smarmy sometimes. Yes, he uses WAY too many "insider tips" that, while interesting, often wind up not going anywhere. And he has written WAY too many stories that have no real conclusion. Among fans, his "Light Magic" history is something of legend because he's been working on it for about five years now.

However, the man truly does have a passion for Disney and the condition of the parks/corporation. For those with the time, check out the archives on his site. There are some really interesting stories about "The Disney That Might Have Been" including detailed description of Western River Expedition, Liberty Street, Edison Square etc, etc.

So, rant as you may . . . Jim doesn't strike me as the kind of person who's out to make a quick buck by trashing every thing Disney does in an effort to sound superior *cough* Al Lutz *cough* Does that give him the right to conduct private business on Disney grounds? Legally, definately not . . . but that doesn't mean that he's just another know-it-all AP either.

For those who haven't been on his site before, Jim did a follow-up story today (Friday) providing a bit more information about the incident here.

If you don't have alot of time, I've provided a couple of quotes from the article below:

I really can't find fault in the Mouse's over-all approach to this situation. Given that I was basically in the wrong. I even managed to find the humor in Bob's [Disney security spokesperson] follow-up remark:

"You wouldn't go to a ball game and start selling hot dogs," he continued, "and not expect the ball park to ask you to stop."

Given the quality of the stories that I sometimes grind out for this site, I find Mr. Tucker's use of the hot dog analogy to be entirely appropriate. So -- just to recap here:

1) No, I'm not mad at Disneyland Security for doing what they did to me. The people that I dealt with this past Sunday afternoon were unfailingly polite and professional. Even though all of their talk of issuing trespassing warnings and/or having me arrested nearly scared the crap out of me.

2) No, I haven't gone into hiding because of what happened last Sunday and/or because of some of the more colorful things that have been written about me on other Disney websites.

Hope this just gives a bit more insight into the matter.

You guys, this actually made National News! I just read about it on signonsandiego.com. Here is a link to that story, and Cujo, you can delete the link if you dont want me to link, I bow to your leadership oh great one!


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/stat ... mouse.html

I dont think you need to sign up to see that story, but you might.

Dave

wheelieman wrote:You guys, this actually made National News! I just read about it on signonsandiego.com. Here is a link to that story, and Cujo, you can delete the link if you dont want me to link, I bow to your leadership oh great one!


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/stat ... mouse.html

I dont think you need to sign up to see that story, but you might.

Dave

bugmenot.com for anytime you need to "register."

leftcoaster wrote:bugmenot.com for anytime you need to "register."

Great tip, leftcoaster! I'd never heard of that site before.

Willy wrote:having me arrested nearly scared the crap out of me.

Good thing it wasn't all the way, or else we would have had to have cleaned it up.

Anywho, aww, how cute! He got a "ton" of emails from people supporting him...

He's NOT paid by Disney to give tours nor authorized. So, here we go: Here it is!

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This is the world's smallest violin playing the Mickey Mouse club just for him.

and for a more irreverent look on the incident check here http://www.westcoaster.net/junk.php?id=04010501