Stupid Guest Tricks

Okay, regarding the "beat the system" argument going on:

I've seen this sort of discussion before, and the idea that one has a right to commit fraud (and that is what we are talking about, in this case) in order to obtain something at a lower or no cost because the regular price is "too high" and the company is "greedy" doesn't hold water. The only time I could possibly see such action as approaching moral and legally right is when it is something of vital and immediate need, and this isn't the case here.

While the Disney resorts are wonderful, and you might argue that they are over-charging, but that STILL doesn't make it right to fraudulently obtain discounted tickets. As I believe other have said, the proper way to deal with such things is to ether decide that you are still willing to pay the expense and get the tickets, or you don't buy the tickets at all.

This isn't a case of "finding a loophole", which would be where one finds some flaw in the wording of an offer that allows one to take advantage of it in a way that the person who made the offer didn't intend. In such a case, one can argue that some of the blame at least settles on the person who didn't think his offer through enough. This is trying to purchase and use tickets under false pretenses. It is wrong, any way you slice it. Theft of service is still theft.

*hops down off of soap box* Now, back to the show!

**High Fives PatchOBlack** Very well said!
:thumbup:

BRWombat wrote:I think we should all get to vote on what Mr. D's salary should be, based on what we think his work is worth.

Since I grossly under charge my customers for the service I provide, then I would say you are more then welcome to "vote" on my salary. And since most everyone in the town knows my work and recommend people to me, I'd say my work is worth a hell of a lot. That is if you count my work and low fees being responsible for putting a Good Year tire out of business here. But then unlike Good year (and others like them), I am not in it for the greed. I am in it to provide a valuable service to people that need it. I keep my customers happy and coming back. No I do not live in a big fancy house. I built my garage myself with my own hands. My employees are not in it of greed but they receive a fair pay check, enough to keep them working for me, and happy to do so. THAT is the difference between working for greed and working for the love of the job.

Mr. D. wrote:Since I grossly under charge my customers for the service I provide, then I would say you are more then welcome to "vote" on my salary. And since most everyone in the town knows my work and recommend people to me, I'd say my work is worth a hell of a lot. That is if you count my work and low fees being responsible for putting a Good Year tire out of business here. But then unlike Good year (and others like them), I am not in it for the greed. I am in it to provide a valuable service to people that need it. I keep my customers happy and coming back. No I do not live in a big fancy house. I built my garage myself with my own hands. My employees are not in it of greed but they receive a fair pay check, enough to keep them working for me, and happy to do so. THAT is the difference between working for greed and working for the love of the job.

While we are all delighted that you pay your employees what you consider a fair wage, and that they believe so as well, and that you yourself charge below what would be considered a fair price for your services and/or products, that is not the point here. Let's say that one of your customers decided that you were actually "greedy" (no matter what the facts actually are). Would he be in the right to use methods that are, at best, unethical and, at worse, illegal and fraud, in order to gain your products or services for a lower price, or no cost at all? Of course not!

What it boils down to is this: It might be cliche, but two wrongs don't make a right. Even if someone is "overcharging" or "being greedy", it does not excuse committing fraud and theft (or theft of service if you want to be specific). That is what is occurring here with the person attempting to purchase resident-discount tickets for non-residents. Look, the way things work is this: Ether you decide that something is worth the cost (even if it is much more than what you would personally consider a "fair price"), pay the cost, and get to use the product or service, or you decide that it isn't worth the cost (ether in money or otherwise), you don't pay, and you don't get to use the product or service. You can't both not pay the cost, and still get the product or service.

Ice Bear wrote:Just a question off topic.
We could buy the "pay seven get 14 days" admission tickets from the UK side for Europeans ( so this are legit tickets).
If we would buy hem could we use seven days and than pat to get the "non expiration" option for the remaining seven days?

No. Those tickets (as well as the 21-Day Ultimate) cannot be made into No Expire as they are not Magic Your Way Tickets but are special deeply discounted tickets.

PatchOBlack wrote:While we are all delighted that you pay your employees what you consider a fair wage, and that they believe so as well,

let me stop you right there. My employees set their own wage. Each of them are paid differently based on what THEY though was fair for their work and experience. See that shows my employees that I trust them to not be greedy. Yet another difference in my company vs. the greedy big guys. (Oh and juts so you know, I don't have a single worker paid less then $10.00/hr, and he is the "grunt" of the team.)

PatchOBlack wrote:...that is not the point here. Let's say that one of your customers decided that you were actually "greedy" (no matter what the facts actually are). Would he be in the right to use methods that are, at best, unethical and, at worse, illegal and fraud, in order to gain your products or services for a lower price, or no cost at all? Of course not!

Lets put it this way. Because I am NOT greedy. my customers would not feel the need to try and cheat me. Because I am not unethical in my prices. And there is NOTHING illegal about what the guy the OP is talking about did. He did NOT steal anything, in fact he PAID for his tickets.

PatchOBlack wrote:What it boils down to is this: It might be cliche, but two wrongs don't make a right. Even if someone is "overcharging" or "being greedy", it does not excuse committing fraud and theft (or theft of service if you want to be specific).

I don't see any place that says he stole service. He paid his hard earned money for a vacation. he just found a way to save a few bucks.

PatchOBlack wrote:That is what is occurring here with the person attempting to purchase resident-discount tickets for non-residents. Look, the way things work is this: Ether you decide that something is worth the cost (even if it is much more than what you would personally consider a "fair price"), pay the cost, and get to use the product or service, or you decide that it isn't worth the cost (ether in money or otherwise), you don't pay, and you don't get to use the product or service. You can't both not pay the cost, and still get the product or service.

Apparently that is not how things work, Disney created the loop hole. Someone found a way to use it. He did not buy the tickets with a credit card, then not pay the card company (in turn "stealing the tickets"). He did not lie to Disney saying he had a vacation and lost his tickets, or that he had a bad time (when he really didn't) in order to get free admission. He didn't even have a coupon that was expired but insist it be valid. The people that do that stuff ARE stealing. This guy just found a way to save some money, that he in turned spent in the parks. So Disney still got their money.

I don't see why you people keep thinking you are all so high and mighty. You have all done something similar and don't deny it. Shared a plate at an all you can eat buffet, claimed your kids were just under the certain age to get cheaper or free admission, Claimed you got wrong food at a fast food place to get a free meal, Buy something and break it and return it and claim it was already broken, Use a student ID to get a discount even after your no longer in school, ect. These are things people do. EVERYONE has done something like this, EVEN YOU. Like it or not, that is how the world works. You are not better then anyone else. You ARE in the same boat.

Mr. D. wrote:let me stop you right there. My employees set their own wage. Each of them are paid differently based on what THEY though was fair for their work and experience. See that shows my employees that I trust them to not be greedy. Yet another difference in my company vs. the greedy big guys. (Oh and juts so you know, I don't have a single worker paid less then $10.00/hr, and he is the "grunt" of the team.)

Your method of establishing your employee's pay is not the norm, as you are probably quite aware. In any case, as I originally stated, such matters are not entirely relevant. However, if you want to go with that example, then to make it more like the situation we are talking about, it would be like tagging on fake deductions from an employee's paycheck so that you are paying them less, and rationalizing it as being because you don't think they were worth the full amount of salary you would pay others for the same work.

Mr. D. wrote: Lets put it this way. Because I am NOT greedy. my customers would not feel the need to try and cheat me. Because I am not unethical in my prices. And there is NOTHING illegal about what the guy the OP is talking about did. He did NOT steal anything, in fact he PAID for his tickets.

Wrong. Just because you give someone money doesn't mean you aren't stealing. Take, for example, the crime of "tag-switching". That is where someone takes the price tag from one product and switches it with the price tag for a cheaper item. It is still theft, even though they did "pay", because they didn't pay the correct and full amount they should have been charged.

Mr. D. wrote: I don't see any place that says he stole service. He paid his hard earned money for a vacation. he just found a way to save a few bucks.

Again, the person in question attempted to fraudulently receive a discounted price for the tickets that they weren't qualified to receive. Thus, it was theft of service through fraud, as he didn't pay the price that he legally should have.

Mr. D. wrote: Apparently that is not how things work, Disney created the loop hole. Someone found a way to use it. He did not buy the tickets with a credit card, then not pay the card company (in turn "stealing the tickets"). He did not lie to Disney saying he had a vacation and lost his tickets, or that he had a bad time (when he really didn't) in order to get free admission. He didn't even have a coupon that was expired but insist it be valid. The people that do that stuff ARE stealing. This guy just found a way to save some money, that he in turned spent in the parks. So Disney still got their money.

There wasn't a "loophole". They discounted price is only for residence, and not "guests of residence" and such. Again, if one doesn't pay the proper price for a product or service, it is still theft. Theft isn't just "took without paying what-so-ever". He got tickets and didn't pay the amount that he should have because he fraudulently claimed that they were all being purchased for/by residences, thus it is theft of service.

Mr. D. wrote: I don't see why you people keep thinking you are all so high and mighty. You have all done something similar and don't deny it. Shared a plate at an all you can eat buffet, claimed your kids were just under the certain age to get cheaper or free admission, Claimed you got wrong food at a fast food place to get a free meal, Buy something and break it and return it and claim it was already broken, Use a student ID to get a discount even after your no longer in school, ect. These are things people do. EVERYONE has done something like this, EVEN YOU. Like it or not, that is how the world works. You are not better then anyone else. You ARE in the same boat.

And now you have crossed the line, pal. No, I don't do things like that. When I get a cup for water at a fast food place, I use it for water, and don't get soda even though I could probably get away with it. I don't try and return an item I broke myself. I don't lie and cheat. Yes, some folks do. Those people are committing crimes, even if they are considered minor crimes and usually aren't arrested or fined for such things. So, I don't think I'm "high and mighty", but I do think I have a better handle on the whole "honesty and ethical behavior" thing.

Mr. D. wrote: You take your car to the shop. They charge you $75/hr for service (plus parts). Out of that $75/hr the actual mechanic that did the real work gets $9.00 - $11.00/hr You now have about $64 left, of which $1-$2 will be used for that hours worth of water, $5 for the hours power bill, and maybe $10 for an hours worth of rent on the building. That leaves $47.00 for the owner to pocket. What did the owner do? He stood there and talked to the customer and took down a tag number. and he made $47/hr for doing so. The mechanic that does the real work. getting dirty, busting his knuckles, gets a whole $11/hr. That seems fair don't it? And here is another thought for you. Maybe if Disney (or insert company here) didn't charge $80 (or insert high price here) for admission (service), then people wouldn't have to charge $75/hr for service. It's a cycle.

Wow, 9 to 11 dollars an hour for a car mechanic! No wonder you are miserable. Two friends work for dealerships on flat rate and make a killing at that same shop rate. Do I go there? Hell no they are too expensive, my choice, just like you have one. My local corner mechanic charges $60 shop rate but doesn't try to up sell me on stuff I don't need like the dealerships do. I have no problem paying that because he has two employee's, heat, hydro and god knows what other overhead to run his place. I go back because he is honest with me and charges what I need and is fair.

Too bad you think scaming the system is OK. Claiming to be a Florida resident when you are not would be like me sending my Mom in to get my truck fixed the shop at the seniors discount even though the truck isn't hers. It's dishonest no matter how you look at it but as long as you can sleep at night thats all that counts. You can get deals on anything without scaming, been doing it for years. All you do is ruin it for others when they take the discount away because people figure the big bad corporation can live, if they scam a few bucks off their vacation.

Disney has plenty of deals for everyone, you just need to wait for it to show up and its yours. If you don't like it don't go, everyone with be better for it. We save hundreds everytime with either a room or dinning deal, go figure and I didn't need to pretend to be a Florida resident to do it.

Mr. D. wrote:I don't see why you people keep thinking you are all so high and mighty. You have all done something similar and don't deny it. Shared a plate at an all you can eat buffet, claimed your kids were just under the certain age to get cheaper or free admission, Claimed you got wrong food at a fast food place to get a free meal, Buy something and break it and return it and claim it was already broken, Use a student ID to get a discount even after your no longer in school, ect. These are things people do. EVERYONE has done something like this, EVEN YOU. Like it or not, that is how the world works. You are not better then anyone else. You ARE in the same boat.)

Erm, sorry, but no, I haven't. Really.

I live by 3 distinct rules:

Don't lie.

Don't cheat.

Don't steal.

And that be THAT, my friend. And it's not about "being better" or "holier than thou". It just is. It's what I'm about.

Mr. D. wrote:let me stop you right there. My employees set their own wage. Each of them are paid differently based on what THEY though was fair for their work and experience. See that shows my employees that I trust them to not be greedy. Yet another difference in my company vs. the greedy big guys. (Oh and juts so you know, I don't have a single worker paid less then $10.00/hr, and he is the "grunt" of the team.)

I said that I wasn't going to get involved with this idiotic discussion but just for the record, when I was in College 45 years ago, I was a Business Management major. One of the first things that we were taught in Personnel Mgmt. was that if you ask a person what they are worth, they will almost always give a number lower then their actual worth. Nothing new about that and frankly, it is one of the greediest ways of establishing salaries. It will be lower than what one should be paid. Just for example...If you, as a business owner could financially determine that a certain position was worth $12 per hour, but the person was asked what they would "take" and they said $10. per hour, would you pay them $10 or $12?

It isn't your employees fault that you are not willing or able to charge today's prices that are the measure of what things are worth and they suffer low incomes to fulfill your lack of confidence in your own work or worth. I'm not buying the saintly posture.