Some Names

[hobie16]

And very scary.

Not to mention tragic and a national shame.

It's well beyond time to take action. These type of deaths will never be eliminated but they certainly can be reduced. Dramatically.

[hobie16]

Some thoughts from one of my favorite columnists ever, Molly Ivans of Texas,

In truth, there is no rational argument for guns in this society. This is no longer a frontier nation in which people hunt their own food. It is a crowded, overwhelmingly urban country in which letting people have access to guns is a continuing disaster. Those who want guns---whether for target shooting, hunting or potting rattlesnakes (get a hoe)---should be subject to the same restrictions placed on gun owners in England---a nation in which liberty has survived nicely without an armed populace. […]

Michael Crichton makes an interesting argument about technology in his thriller "Jurassic Park." He points out that power without discipline is making this society into a wreckage. By the time someone who studies the martial arts becomes a master---literally able to kill with bare hands---that person has also undergone years of training and discipline. But any fool can pick up a gun and kill with it.

"A well-regulated militia" surely implies both long training and long discipline. That is the least, the very least, that should be required of those who are permitted to have guns, because a gun is literally the power to kill. For years, I used to enjoy taunting my gun-nut friends about their psycho-sexual hang-ups---always in a spirit of good cheer, you understand. But letting the noisy minority in the National Rifle Association force us to allow this carnage to continue is just plain insane.

[BRWombat]

Thank you first to hobie for posting the names and stories of the victims. Too often it is the murderer who gets his name immortalized instead of the innocents.

Since this thread has also turned to calls for gun control, please stop to consider some other thoughts before reflexively calling for gun restrictions. Whatever your position on the Second Amendment, it's just not that simple: in Connecticut, the shooter broke at least three existing laws surrounding the use of firearms: he was not old enough to possess a weapon, as Connecticut law requires a person be over 21. He did not have a permit to carry a weapon as required in the state, and he was not allowed to have a firearm on "public or private elementary or secondary school property." It is possible, but unclear, whether the Bushmaster rifle is illegal under the state law banning possession of "assault weapons." Would further laws have dissuaded him? [source]

Also, gun crimes continue to soar in England where guns are banned.

This is a horrifying tragedy, and I'm not a "pry it from my cold dead fingers" gun nut, but let's have a rational discussion about what really works before we blithely surrender our freedom. Any discussion should include not just the weapon, but the actual causes of violence: Mental illness. Sin. Those are a lot harder to tackle, admittedly, but anyone who commits this type of unspeakably evil act has a soul problem more than a gun problem.

[felinefan]

Since the shooter was known to have mental health issues, I say we need to spend more on mental health services, and go back to institutionalizing those whose problems were extreme, like his. Gun control has never worked--criminals can and have managed to get around them.

[WEDFan]

Since this thread has also turned to calls for gun control, please stop to consider some other thoughts before reflexively calling for gun restrictions. Whatever your position on the Second Amendment, it's just not that simple: in Connecticut, the shooter broke at least three existing laws surrounding the use of firearms: he was not old enough to possess a weapon, as Connecticut law requires a person be over 21. He did not have a permit to carry a weapon as required in the state, and he was not allowed to have a firearm on "public or private elementary or secondary school property." It is possible, but unclear, whether the Bushmaster rifle is illegal under the state law banning possession of "assault weapons." Would further laws have dissuaded him? [source]

Unfortunately, gun control is such a third-rail topic, I think people have to get a little emotionally invested before the conversation can even begin, but I agree... whatever discussion comes out of this, all the people involved should stop and consider a lot of different things before acting.

The laws he violated didn't work. That's plain. I'm not sure that means that no laws can work. The problem in this case seems to be one of availability rather than deterrent. If it is a deterrent law, I, like you, doubt it would have worked on the shooter. Deterrence is for rational criminals who weigh the risks and rewards. He wasn't that.

This is a horrifying tragedy, and I'm not a "pry it from my cold dead fingers" gun nut, but let's have a rational discussion about what really works before we blithely surrender our freedom.

Agreed, but both sides have to be open. Fear of the slippery slope often leads gun supporters unwilling to talk about any measures, and there is a powerful lobbying force at the head of that argument making it difficult to begin the rational conversation. I don't personally know any one who wants to ban guns completely, but I do know people who are against gun regulation of any kind.

Any discussion should include not just the weapon, but the actual causes of violence: Mental illness. Sin. Those are a lot harder to tackle, admittedly, but anyone who commits this type of unspeakably evil act has a soul problem more than a gun problem.

Since the shooter was known to have mental health issues, I say we need to spend more on mental health services, and go back to institutionalizing those whose problems were extreme, like his. Gun control has never worked--criminals can and have managed to get around them.

I think we could certainly do better caring for the mentally ill, but I'm not sure that most of the shooters in recent episodes exhibited symptoms that would justify in-patient care. This kind of behaviour has actually been around for quite a while. The expression "running amok" originated in Malay with men who would suddenly rush into a crowd with a sword or knife trying to kill and injure as many others as possible. They would often be considered perfectly normal men who suddenly became violent. The big difference with the current ones is how effectively they can kill.

Also, gun control never working is debatable. iinm, most other industrialized countries have more gun control than we do, and less gun violence. I need to read the story BRW linked to on the rise in the UK, but Australia is a more recent case study that a number of people have been bringing up in the wake of this tragedy.

[hobie16]

There is no reason why anyone needs an assault type weapon with all of it's accessories.

There's no reason why anyone needs a magazine that holds more than six rounds.

There's no reason why anyone needs a semi-automatic rifle unless you want to convert your venison into hamburger instantly in the field.

How do I know this? Between active and active reserve time I served sixteen years in the Army. I was qualified with the M-1, M-14, M-16, M-60, .38, .45, M72, M-79, and M-203. I saw the damage these weapons can do up close and personal.

[Goofyernmost]

This is a post that I made on another site. I know that a lot of people think that it is not possible to happen to us. I mean really, we are Americans, they don't dare, but as liberal as I am in most of my thinking, I do not feel that this scenario is even remotely not possible. We have to figure out if we are a mighty nation in spite of our liberal view on gun control or because of it. It is important to make that distinction. We do, indeed have a reputation around the world as a bunch of gun toting, violence prone people. We all know that this isn't true of 99% of our population, but ambitious people that are potential threats to us do not know that and it has to give them pause, I believe.

Banning guns no matter how you try and think it will solve the problem will not solve the problem. In order for it to work you have to believe that by making gun ownership illegal it will end the problem, as if to say that someone that is of a state of mind to kill that many children will somehow follow that letter of the law when it comes to gun ownership. It's hard to follow that logic. As long as there is a buck to be made and someplace in the world that manufactures guns they will be readily available. The problem is only the people that are not law abiding will have them. I believe we have a law in place currently that makes killing innocent people illegal. That bit of legislation didn't help much did it?

As terrible and tragic as this recent bit of insanity is, think back and consider if anything would have changed if slaves brought from Africa had been able to defend themselves. Would it have happened? How about millions that were slaughtered through genocide because they were not allowed to own guns and defend themselves against tyrants that wanted them dead. Would it have been possible that the outcome might have changed if they had been able to defend themselves?

That is the reason for the second amendment. It wasn't to go out and pulverize deer, it was to defend ourselves from greedy evil people that want ownership of what we have. Don't for one minute think that this hasn't been a big part of why we haven't really been invaded since the War of 1812 and it is a very big part of why we aren't all speaking with an English accent.

The main issue behind what happened this week is mostly social. It is mental illness unchecked and not fixable until someone is hurt or killed. It is our never ending desire to protect the aggressor instead of the victim that makes things like this become a reality.

If it makes everyone feel better to blame guns for this terrible tragedy, go for it. But remember they didn't fire themselves off.

If gun control means that we no longer have easy access to high powered military type firearms. Count me in on that vote. We don't need that for casual gun ownership. Seems like I can remember a few years back that automatic weapons were illegal to own. If you did own one the mechanism had to be altered so that the semi and automatic function did not work. Maybe even a limit on the number of firearms we could own is logical as well. Individuals do not need arsenals. But please stop saying we need to eliminate the 2nd amendment, there is way, way, way to much at stake here for that type of knee jerk reaction.

[hobie16]

The disease of death by firearm is epidemic in the United States. It well beyond having a cure implemented.

[hobie16]

Some thought from a member of the Armed Forces.

True Stories in Gun Control
By John Cole December 15th, 2012

After Operation Desert Shield and Storm, I was stationed at Camp Blackhorse in Doha Kuwait with the 11th ACR. We were an Armored Cavalry Regiment (ACR), which basically means we were a self contained unit.
[...]
When we were in Camp Doha in Kuwait, Alpha troop (my unit), would go run border missions in Iraq while Bravo troop would do maintenance on their vehicles and Charlie troop be in what we called Z-phase, which was running the security for our base.
[...]
So why am I telling you this? Because in the middle of one of the most dangerous regions in the world, even with clear Rules of Engagement, every time I went on gate duty, there was a piece of tape over my ammo clip on my M-16 and M1911 .45. Why? Because the most heavily armed military in the world did not want accidental shootings. If a situation arose, I would have to eject my ammo clip, remove the tape, and reinsert and work the action before I could fire.

This was in a combat zone. Yet I have spent the last two fucking days dealing with armchair commandos telling me they need unlimited firepower to be safe in… Connecticut.

If there are bigger pussies in the world than gun nuts, I don’t know who the fuck they are.

full article

[hobie16]

Today's headlines:

Two Police Officers Shot And Killed In Kansas... 3-Year-Old Accidentally Shoots Himself, Dies... Gunman At Large After Shooting Victim 4 Times... Man Shoots Wife... One Person Shot In San Antonio, Gunman Later Shot By Cops... Woman Shot At Campground... Woman Shot To Death, Son 'Thought She Was Sleeping'... 3 Gunned Down In Grand Rapids