Your FP says 9:40...it's 6:15..

[Lasolimu]

To me it seems like you are almost guaranteed to wait less time. As a simple example, say I only had an hour and a half at the park. Without Fastpass, I do one E-ticket ride. 60 minutes waiting 15 minutes on an attraction. 15 minutes free. With Fastpass, I do one E and one C. 10 minutes getting my FP, 30 minutes waiting (15 and 15), 30 minutes on an attraction (15 and 15), 20 minutes Free. Now expand that throughout a day. I'm there for the same amount of time, but my wait time is reduced and I did more things, so wait/attraction average is even less. And that's why I think most of the perceptions will be positive.

You most likely wouldn't get those two attractions though. You'd go to get a fastpass, and often find that the return time is after you would leave or they are out, so you either stand in the standby line or find something else. I also don't see that you're wait times for non fastpass attractions is realistic. I rarely, if ever, see queues as low as 15 minutes, and when I do, it is an attraction that can really push people through in high quantity like Buzz Lightyear.

When I see wait times consistently at or above an hour on non fastpass rides I just don't see fastpass saving any time. Then when I see CMs holding back standby people because they don't have fastpasses to send through to meet the ratio I know there are problems that aren't considered in the theory, if you are in that line you are waiting longer. This is a variable that can not be predicted and causes major problems. I think these situations are what result in most people getting angry about fastpass(it's the only time I've been angry about fastpass going ahead).

As for the 1 or 2 fastpasses per day, in order to get more than that you have to focus simply on getting fastpasses whenever you can. Get to the park at opening, get a fastpass, do something for an hour, get a fastpass, do something for an hour, get a fastpass. By now the park has been open for 2 hours, what are the chances that fastpasses are gone or at a time that will not be good? Very high, at least in my experience. I personally don't like to do that, I like to do things as they come up, I don't want to spend the day focused on getting and using fastpasses, constantly checking my watch to see if it's been an hour yet.

[WEDFan]

You most likely wouldn't get those two attractions though. You'd go to get a fastpass, and often find that the return time is after you would leave or they are out, so you either stand in the standby line or find something else. I also don't see that you're wait times for non fastpass attractions is realistic. I rarely, if ever, see queues as low as 15 minutes, and when I do, it is an attraction that can really push people through in high quantity like Buzz Lightyear.

But I do, though, all the time. This is where I think our experiences must be very different. Almost all of the attractions I listed above would be around a 0-20 minute wait. I used 15 for shorthand. And I absolutely do not experience Fastpasses being all given out before mid to late afternoon. TSMM is the only one I have encountered that consistently runs out in the morning. I almost never see non-FP attractions with waits of 1 hour or more. Just doesn't happen to me. If that consistently happened, I would think Disney would add FP to that attraction. Oddly enough, Buzz it almost always between 15 and 30 when I check. :D:

Then when I see CMs holding back standby people because they don't have fastpasses to send through to meet the ratio I know there are problems that aren't considered in the theory, if you are in that line you are waiting longer.

Does this happen??? Holding back stand by when there are no FP people? I've never seen it. Not sure why they would even do that. I would agree that under the current FP system you can't completely predict the number of FP people at any given point, but since the system knows how many it has given out, it is mostly people who get them and never use them. Their absence would actually reduce the wait in the Stand By line creating a positive impression.

It really does seem that our experiences are very different. I've been to WDW often enough that I don't stress about getting on any particular ride, so I never focus on getting FPs, but I still get 2 to 3 per day. Yes, sometimes the return time doesn't work for me, I usually know that going in to it. I plan on being in the parks all day (not usually the same park), but I have a good idea how much longer I'll be there and I usually figure the FP return will be 1 to 3 hours away. If I can't do that I don't even look and just plan on hitting it another day. Maybe that alters my perceptions a lot. Also, as I said before, I don't go during the really busy times, and I've never toured DLR. Those might be some of the reasons it has been so different for us.

[Lasolimu]

Maybe I just have really bad luck with it, but it doesn't seem to really matter which park I'm in. That CM holding up standby wanting to hit the ratio with 0 fastpasses coming in at that time was at DHS. Even if it is bad luck that this could even be a factor is a problem. I would much rather wait the hour that the queue would be without fastpass then see 2 hours listed as the wait time and end up waiting for 2.5-3 hours. I use fastpass often, but the system leaves a bitter taste in my mouth and it isn't because people are going ahead of me, it's because to me it has seemed so mismanaged that I can't see it being successful.

I must be one of the most unlucky people around because I've never had a time where I felt I was waiting less because of fastpass.

[Goofyernmost]

For what it is worth...I think statistics are not worth the paper they are printed on. How things look always are determined by the angle that you are viewing it from and how you wish to see it.

So someone can tell me all day that they have a survey that says that average wait times are down and I will only be impressed when my experience matches those fancy words.

Keeping the math simple concerning the average wait time. When everyone was in the same line and the wait time was 30 minutes, that was the average for all. Now factor in FP and the regular wait time in the Fastpass line is 10 minutes and now the standby line is 40 minutes then the average wait time is now 25 minutes. Wow, sounds pretty good...they shaved 5 minutes off the wait time on average. The problem is that it only shaved time off in the fastpass line and increased the wait time for the other line. The line that the majority is in. The larger number of screwed guests are inconvenienced for the joy of the minority. You can paint all kinds of rosy colors to that it is still going to end up a very dark shade for most, bright and cheery for a few.

I have resigned myself to the idea that it is a permanent part of the plan from now until there is no longer a Disney Park on the planet, but, please don't tell me that it is a great thing and a benefit for all...it is not!

[kurtisnelson]

For what it is worth...I think statistics are not worth the paper they are printed on. How things look always are determined by the angle that you are viewing it from and how you wish to see it.

See, here is our disagreement. I see this as the engineer/scientist that I am. If we can numerically prove that the majority of guests will have a better experience and be able to experience a higher RPC, it is definitively better. Also of note, this is how Disney themselves operate. Also, I'm thinking that maybe some of you have only experienced Disney World at peak periods based on the problems you are mentioning. During design day and quieter, Fastpasses really aren't ever more than 2 hours out. Once again, TSMM is an exception, but it always is due to it's incredibly below standard capacity.
How you wish to see it really does not matter from the business standpoint, as long as the average guest sees an average improvement, it is a positive. As far as labeling these as statistics, I'm not sure that is a true statement. Statistics generally involve measuring the whole given a sample of the few and drawing conclusions there. Statistics are used when you don't actually have the foundational *laws* to back it up. What I have brought up so far are stochastics, which are based on the laws of probability and queuing. This is especially true at the unique environment of Disney where almost every variable can actually be controlled and measured due to the controlled environment. Thus the proper department at Disney has proven that the average wait time is lower due to fastpass. Whether you feel that this is a benefit personally to you is up to you, but it cannot be argued that wait times are longer due to fastpass.
Yes, with my style of touring during below average crowds, I would prefer no fastpass as they tend to just be 40 minutes out and would prefer to just walk up. But really, I just have to think only two steps ahead, grab a fastpass, go ride something quickly, then go use that fastpass. It can actually be leveraged in Tomorrowland beautifully to a point where you can get more Fastpasses for Space Mountain than it is actually possible to use. But as we approach design day and then exceed it, Fastpass is wonderful.

[GaTechGal]

Guys, I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying this nerdy debate. I really do love it.

And I've got to say that FastPasses make it possible for my family to really enjoy the Magic Kingdom. We probably are gaming the system, but I don't really think so in the long run. We tend to get there at rope drop, and get fastpasses for the rides of our choosing as often as our window allows us to. But we almost never use them for the window that we're supposed to. Naughty, Naughty you say - but I counter with - we LEAVE the parks from noonish until about 4 (which according to the previous discussion is during the most busy time) then return and use all our fast passes one after the other. So during the time we have left the park, we are not adding to the size of either the fastpass line or the standby line. And we should only add to the fastpass line a little upon our return which is a slower time anyway. Now if EVERYBODY did this then it would be a problem. But then the standby lines during 12-4 would be slower smoothing things out a bit. This is, of course, anticdotal and specutlative so you milage may vary.

I will add that NEVER have I EVER seen CMs holding a standby line waiting for FP holders to show up. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it just seems dumb. If they aren't going to hold my ADR if I don't show and have empty tables while walk ups stand hungrily by, then I can't see them letting empty cars launch at Space Mountain or TSMM.

[Zazu]

That's an interesting analysis WEDFan, but there are definitely more things to consider.

I agree with both statements.

I don't see a big increase in merchandise sales from it.

I would say it has no effect on Disney food sales throughout the day.

This wasn't the experience at the MK when Fastpass was installed. In fact, the additional profits (not revenues), paid for the Fastpass installation within about 10 months. It has a *major* impact on that Park's bottom line; and I can only assume it's the same for the other parks.

Whatever else might be said about the desirability of Fastpass, it's this direct and measurable impact on the bottom line that will keep this feature in the Parks.

[Goofyernmost]

See, here is our disagreement. I see this as the engineer/scientist that I am. If we can numerically prove that the majority of guests will have a better experience and be able to experience a higher RPC, it is definitively better. Also of note, this is how Disney themselves operate. Also, I'm thinking that maybe some of you have only experienced Disney World at peak periods based on the problems you are mentioning. During design day and quieter, Fastpasses really aren't ever more than 2 hours out. Once again, TSMM is an exception, but it always is due to it's incredibly below standard capacity.
How you wish to see it really does not matter from the business standpoint, as long as the average guest sees an average improvement, it is a positive. As far as labeling these as statistics, I'm not sure that is a true statement. Statistics generally involve measuring the whole given a sample of the few and drawing conclusions there. Statistics are used when you don't actually have the foundational *laws* to back it up. What I have brought up so far are stochastics, which are based on the laws of probability and queuing. This is especially true at the unique environment of Disney where almost every variable can actually be controlled and measured due to the controlled environment. Thus the proper department at Disney has proven that the average wait time is lower due to fastpass. Whether you feel that this is a benefit personally to you is up to you, but it cannot be argued that wait times are longer due to fastpass.
Yes, with my style of touring during below average crowds, I would prefer no fastpass as they tend to just be 40 minutes out and would prefer to just walk up. But really, I just have to think only two steps ahead, grab a fastpass, go ride something quickly, then go use that fastpass. It can actually be leveraged in Tomorrowland beautifully to a point where you can get more Fastpasses for Space Mountain than it is actually possible to use. But as we approach design day and then exceed it, Fastpass is wonderful.

I understand what you are saying but, and this is a big but, the general public is not seeing it as an improvement, they are seeing it as the opposite. The only ones that see it as an improvement are the ones that are actually holding a Fastpass in their hands. The vast majority of the general public are not able to do that for any particular ride. Overall, they might be able to experience it a couple of times a day, but not consistently.

So the statistical evidence, even if it were accurate, which I doubt, has no impression on them at all and the "engineers" need to go stand in the line and hear, see and experience what the average guest sees, hears and experiences, not what that printout says they should be experiencing.

I'll carry this a step further just so you will see that I am not totally without the ability to see the merit in FP. I made a complaint to WDW about the FP program years ago, they called me back and spoke with me for over 45 minutes about my feelings. I said this at the time and I still believe it. "If you could find a way to completely, completely separate the Fastpass entry from the standby entry then, and only then, a lot of the anger would dissipate" If you cannot see what is going on, you are not aware of delays and therefore psychologically, it become way less of a problem.

We are taught from early childhood the evils of line cutting and we learn it in almost every aspect of social life, and then, all of a sudden you are forced to watch people come from nowhere and get ahead of you. It doesn't really matter why at that point, the only thing that matters is that it is happening and you have been programed that it is wrong. You can rationalize till you are blue about how a program is set up and that you are free to utilize it as well, and you even do. But that program is set and when you are supposed to just let it go...well, it isn't all that easy. Let's just call it human nature. So Disney or anybody else that uses a system like FP needs to be aware of that human weakness and accommodate for it. It only makes sense.

[Mayonnaise]

As a guest with no training in crowd control or statistics, who gets to the parks once every two or three years at most:

I'm sorry, but I like fastpass. When it's important to me to get one, I prioritize trying to get one, and if I can't, that's ok too. I love having one, but I have no ill feelings toward the people in the fastpass line when I am in standby, they're first come, first serve, and I didn't choose to get one, or wasn't able to, and oh well. No big deal.

This idea that every human has a visceral mood ruining reaction to seeing fastpass people cut ahead of them is absurd. I get that SOME people have this reaction, but I don't understand why the detractors are so certain that they are in the majority, and only Cast Members and Statisticians are able to stand in the standby without feeling wronged.

Are you next going to say the single rider queue should go because that too gets people to the head of the line faster than standby, because of this supposed human inability to rationalize that there are different queues for different conditions?

8^/

[Ms. Matterhorn]

Fast Pass rocks and so does Single Rider queue. There. I said it.