Your FP says 9:40...it's 6:15..

[WEDFan]

For what it is worth...I think statistics are not worth the paper they are printed on.

As Will Rogers said, there are lies, damn lies and statistics :D:

So someone can tell me all day that they have a survey that says that average wait times are down and I will only be impressed when my experience matches those fancy words.

Seeing is believing, I know, but I'm not citing any surveys or studies. I'm talking about my personal experience and using my analytical background to explain my personal observations.

Keeping the math simple concerning the average wait time. When everyone was in the same line and the wait time was 30 minutes, that was the average for all. Now factor in FP and the regular wait time in the Fastpass line is 10 minutes and now the standby line is 40 minutes then the average wait time is now 25 minutes. Wow, sounds pretty good...they shaved 5 minutes off the wait time on average. The problem is that it only shaved time off in the fastpass line and increased the wait time for the other line. The line that the majority is in. The larger number of screwed guests are inconvenienced for the joy of the minority. You can paint all kinds of rosy colors to that it is still going to end up a very dark shade for most, bright and cheery for a few.

Here's the flaw I see with this. The wait time for the FP attraction itself does not change significantly. Basically the same number of guests are riding, some are just avoiding the queue. The people in Stand By are in a shorter line than they would otherwise be, so even though that line gets stopped regularly the overall wait times don't change much if at all. There may be a few more people who do that attraction because of FP who otherwise wouldn't, but not the 33% that would be needed to increase the wait from 30 minutes to 40 minutes, and a number of people who reserve the spot in the queue never return, so those in Stand By benefit. Bascially, the Stand By wait time should be unchanged. Much of the preceeding discussion was about wait times on non-FP attractions going up because their utilization increases.

I understand what you are saying but, and this is a big but, the general public is not seeing it as an improvement, they are seeing it as the opposite. The only ones that see it as an improvement are the ones that are actually holding a Fastpass in their hands. The vast majority of the general public are not able to do that for any particular ride. Overall, they might be able to experience it a couple of times a day, but not consistently.

I don't believe that's a true statement about the general public. I do both Fastpass and Stand By lines and, yes, I hear people in the Stand By line complain when FPers go by, but here's the thing. People are much more likely to voice a complaint than approval, so you hear the negatives but nothing else. We know the people in the FP queue are happy, and the majority of people in the Stand By queue don't seem to have a problem, and all those people not in the queues at all are probably having a good time. Even the complainers probably have a good time once they reach the attraction so for most it was no more than a momentary thing. Most of the comments I've ever heard are actually "What is that line over there?" or "Why is that line moving so fast?" When I'm in the Stand By line and seeing the FPers go by I am content with that. I made the choice. Next time I may make a different choice or not. And here's where I agree with the later part of your post (which I won't quote to save a little space), for some people there is a psychological impact and their expereince is diminished. If the queues could be completely apart, I think you are right and it would be better, but it's not practical. Possibly for future attractions. Everest is better than most at not putting the queues in a head-to-head race to board, but the physical requirements of individual queue expereinces can't be met in the existing attractions and would be hard in future. Overall, I would say that if there was more guest dissatisfaction with FP enabled parks over the dissatisfaction that comes from waiting in lines in general, Disney would need to react because attendance and utilization would be down.

[WEDFan]

When it's important to me to get one, I prioritize trying to get one, and if I can't, that's ok too. I love having one, but I have no ill feelings toward the people in the fastpass line when I am in standby, they're first come, first serve, and I didn't choose to get one, or wasn't able to, and oh well. No big deal.

Exactly! Wish I had said it that well! :thumbup:

[CptnSkippy]

We are taught from early childhood the evils of line cutting and we learn it in almost every aspect of social life, and then, all of a sudden you are forced to watch people come from nowhere and get ahead of you. It doesn't really matter why at that point, the only thing that matters is that it is happening and you have been programed that it is wrong. You can rationalize till you are blue about how a program is set up and that you are free to utilize it as well, and you even do. But that program is set and when you are supposed to just let it go...well, it isn't all that easy. Let's just call it human nature. So Disney or anybody else that uses a system like FP needs to be aware of that human weakness and accommodate for it. It only makes sense.

I've been watching the debate, and while I side with FP, here's the point where i'll agree with you. As much as FP is promoted, there are still those that don't know it and they see (Disney sanctioned) line cutting. While I don't feel it is, I do agree that the hard feelings would dissipate if the queues were separated and met behind closed doors.


As a whole, I feel the standby times are less. As a child, we only went in peak times. Now as a parent, we try to take a weekend during off-peak, but with school that doesn't always happen. We still feel that we were able to ride the attractions we want to, even in the middle of summer.

[Goofyernmost]

So if nothing else we all have to agree that we don't all agree. I am not trying to sway anyone's opinion, just trying to point out the reality, as I see it. I am aware that Fastpass probably isn't going anywhere and I hope that my dire predictions of the future are all wrong.

I should also point out that I, personally, do not usually get upset when in the standby line. (ok, occasionally when I'm hot or tired and my feet hurt) I do know how it works and sometimes I haven't even tried to get a Fastpass, I just decide to do standby. I am more reporting what I have seen happen in the line and the differences between now and over the last 27 years.

This change in guest attitude is what concerns me. I sure isn't magical for them and I have to wonder how much return business is lost because of it.

I have pretty much run the gamete of my opinions on this subject and in spite of some good arguments contrary to my opinions my mind has not really change, as I'm sure yours haven't either. :)

[bookbabe]

I've been watching the debate, and while I side with FP, here's the point where i'll agree with you. As much as FP is promoted, there are still those that don't know it and they see (Disney sanctioned) line cutting. While I don't feel it is, I do agree that the hard feelings would dissipate if the queues were separated and met behind closed doors.

But a lot of those people "that don't know it" are the same SGs that don't read any of the other literature, or even the website before they go, and have no clue about ADRs, the buses, the parks, etc. I have no sympathy for people who don't understand FP because they couldn't even bother to read the free map that was handed out at the gates of the park. I mean, come on, do some basic research, people...

[kcberlin]

This change in guest attitude is what concerns me. I sure isn't magical for them and I have to wonder how much return business is lost because of it.

Not that this may matter to the discussion at all, but on my most recent trip I took the backstage magic tour. Our guide told us that 75% of WDW business is from repeat guests. Leaving out statistics and numbers and all manner of things I don't even pretend to understand, I'd say that's pretty darn good.

As far as the whole fastpass thing goes, I've done Disney, I've paid at Universal and Six Flags. I understand both points of the argument, and I have heard the complaints at all the parks when I walk past the standby lines. At the parks where I have to pay to use that line, I rarely care if people complain about it. I've paid for the privilege and dammit I'm going to use it. I will occasionally have a twinge of guilt at Disney, but when I'm walking past standby lines and there are still fastpasses available, I don't feel bad at all. Go get one yourself, it doesn't take that much effort or time.

That's my two cents, and I hope I don't offend anyone with this post.

[kurtisnelson]

I understand what you are saying but, and this is a big but, the general public is not seeing it as an improvement, they are seeing it as the opposite. The only ones that see it as an improvement are the ones that are actually holding a Fastpass in their hands. The vast majority of the general public are not able to do that for any particular ride. Overall, they might be able to experience it a couple of times a day, but not consistently.

Actually, the statement that the majority is not able to get a fastpass is completely false, by design, up to 85% of capacity is designated FastPass. This means that 85% of the people walking out of the exit used a fastpass, which is the majority. If we make the assumption that, by design, on average all the people in the park who want to ride could actually all ride, then 85% of the people in the park can get a fastpass for that attraction. The goal when designing a ride is to make sure the supply meets the demand, so generally this holds true. Note once again, TSMM completely blows up that assumption, as it is impossible to ever get the amount of people who want to ride it through in one day.

[Amphigorey]

Note once again, TSMM completely blows up that assumption, as it is impossible to ever get the amount of people who want to ride it through in one day.

What is the capacity for TSMM, anyway?

[kurtisnelson]

What is the capacity for TSMM, anyway?

If I'm remembering correctly, around 1400 THRC. E-Tickets normally break 2000.

[goofyjoe]

If I'm remembering correctly, around 1400 THRC. E-Tickets normally break 2000.

Having seen the massive standby lines for TSMM several times over the past couple of years, even in "off" times like mid-October when there aren't a lot of kids out of school, I would think that they could probably double capacity and still have massive lines. They must have underestimated the popularity and broad appeal of the attraction (anyone can ride it)!