A Coming of Age Story

[DisneyMom]

I think we can avoid fireworks on this one by assuming that Zazu's purpose was not to embarass the young Lady, and the fact that he is intact after visiting all of the Random People here in Cali shows that he most probably showed restraint and good humor in what could have been a tense situation. Good thing her Dad was watching the whole time and knew Zazu was the "Rub-ee" not the "Rub-er". Can think of lots of kids and adults who like nothing better that to point the finger at someone else to cover their own bad behavior :mad:

And yes, women are vulnerable, it can be dangerous to be too close to the wrong person at DLR or anywhere. I think she needs to be more aware.

[ktulu]

Ugh, really? Oh wait, never-mind. I'm not surprised.

Sometimes I wonder if this site is just not something some people should participate in. Anyway, well said Disneymom :)

[TiggerHappy]

I've seen first-hand that not everyone follows the "think before you leap" philosophy. I've seen kids and teens climbing on walls, taking apart queue chains, banging windows, and many other things that would've earned a good yell or spanking back in my day. Who's to say that girl understood that she was a woman? It's plainly obvious that a lot of kids and teens are oblivious to what's inappropriate and their parents sure aren't stepping in to correct or explain. You can tell a person to stop, but unless you explain why, they're just going to keep going. The way Zazu handled the situation both made the girl more aware of herself without blowing up the situation unecessarily. This is what more people need to do.

[Amphigorey]

Ugh, really? Oh wait, never-mind. I'm not surprised.

Sometimes I wonder if this site is just not something some people should participate in. Anyway, well said Disneymom :)

I'm sorry, was that a backhanded insult directed at me?

[Big Wallaby]

Our society today is far too bent on keeping us as young as possible for as long as possible. It's taken me until now to get into a serious career, and I both consider myself and was considered one of the more mature of my age range, since I am married (again, early for my generation at 24) and don't live in my parents' basement at 31 (perhaps they made a wise decision not to have one). That is not to say that everyone who is unmarried at 24 or living in their parents home at 31 is immature, but in many cases the argument could be made. Now, couple all that with the fact that I look behind me in that regard and see no real improvement, and then add in a dash of how much adults cannot say to children and teens around them for whatever reason.

Hillary Clinton once said that it takes a community to raise a child. I am picky about choosing to agree with that statement, as it was stated in one tone, but I take it a little out of context to agree with it. If we don't have the adults of our communities watching out for the children of our communities, who will in that moment when mom and dad have their backs turned, or don't realize that something is going on before them?

I went back to Zazu's original post,

"Miss, I know you feel like a little girl on the inside and that you're all excited about being at Disneyland, but on the outside you're a woman. As a result, if you want to continue to rub your body up against mine, you're going to need a note from my wife, and probably one from your father, as well. While you work on the paperwork, I need to ask you to take a step back. In return, I'll stay close to the people in front of me and do all I can to help the line move quickly. Okay?"

and I did not see anything there about her breasts or any part of her body. Of course this was from memory, but I do trust Zazu to have control of his tongue. What was related to us as being said in that moment was put delicately, especially after the comment about OBT, which causes me uproarious laughter every time I read it.

There was once a time that it was important that we be attractive and attracted to the opposite sex at that age, and there are cultures where it is still important. I am rather thankful that the American culture is not one of them. Since that is an aspect of our physical being that we can't activate and deactivate whenever we want, the other option is to cover up. When someone decides to wear clothing that advertises (whether that is their intention or not), I know that I catch myself having a look, and I am glad that I don't have any real interest, since I am very happily married to the most beautiful lady I know. You'd be amazed at things that I have heard when working with other male employees when out of earshot of underdressed female guests, and it didn't matter their age so long as they have something to show... pretty disgusting, actually. In at least one area I've worked where they have heavy radio usage, there is a whole code system in place so that they can comment to each other while in guest view, using something similar to the radio codes and technical jargon out of context. Frankly, I find what Zazu did much, much classy.

[Amphigorey]

Zazu was policing her body along with her behavior, and that's why I disagree with how he handled it. If that had been me at fifteen, I would have been mortified and it would have ruined my day. Conversely, if I'd been told at fifteen to stop bouncing into someone, with no reference to "rubbing my body" on them, I'd have been embarrassed, but not horrified at the sexual implication. I don't think the sexual implication was at all necessary. Zazu could have handled it just as effectively if he'd said, "Excuse me, miss, please stop crashing into me."

You'd be amazed at things that I have heard when working with other male employees when out of earshot of underdressed female guests, and it didn't matter their age so long as they have something to show... pretty disgusting, actually. In at least one area I've worked where they have heavy radio usage, there is a whole code system in place so that they can comment to each other while in guest view, using something similar to the radio codes and technical jargon out of context.

This is an excellent example of how men can fight sexism on the ground. If you hear your co-workers doing crap like this, you can say, "Hey guys, that's not cool. Knock it off." It is disgusting, and the only way some men will figure that out is if people like you tell them so.

ETA one more thing:

When someone decides to wear clothing that advertises (whether that is their intention or not),

Some of us don't have much of a choice.

[Goofyernmost]

Zazu was policing her body along with her behavior, and that's why I disagree with how he handled it. If that had been me at fifteen, I would have been mortified and it would have ruined my day. Conversely, if I'd been told at fifteen to stop bouncing into someone, with no reference to "rubbing my body" on them, I'd have been embarrassed, but not horrified at the sexual implication. I don't think the sexual implication was at all necessary. Zazu could have handled it just as effectively if he'd said, "Excuse me, miss, please stop crashing into me."

This is an excellent example of how men can fight sexism on the ground. If you hear your co-workers doing crap like this, you can say, "Hey guys, that's not cool. Knock it off." It is disgusting, and the only way some men will figure that out is if people like you tell them so.

So what you are saying is that as a species we are to completely deny any and all sexuality. That it is the responsibility of the bystander to never react to anyone else's behavior regardless of it's possible consequence. That you don't think that, regardless of her age, that young lady wasn't aware of her sexuality and those that are wondering about are oblivious to what they look like and what they are showing and, if they are, don't feel that anyone should notice? And that, in spite of their obvious intention shouldn't create any reaction from those that see it? That is not only denying that the individual has no self awareness, but it is also saying that everyone needs to suppress one of the strongest drives in mankind...that being sexual attraction? Good luck with selling that!

It is disgusting, and the only way some men will figure that out is if people like you tell them so.

At what point do we inform the women, girls (whatever) that their behavior can and will cause problems. Then how do you decide that this isn't something that was the point of the display to begin with. No, I guess you're right it is the disgusting behavior of the MEN. Imagine, embarrassing those innocent little females. How would they ever know they are being seductive?

[Amphigorey]

So what you are saying is that as a species we are to completely deny any and all sexuality. That it is the responsibility of the bystander to never react to anyone else's behavior regardless of it's possible consequence. That you don't think that, regardless of her age, that young lady wasn't aware of her sexuality and those that are wondering about are oblivious to what they look like and what they are showing and, if they are, don't feel that anyone should notice? And that, in spite of their obvious intention shouldn't create any reaction from those that see it? That is not only denying that the individual has no self awareness, but it is also saying that everyone needs to suppress one of the strongest drives in mankind...that being sexual attraction? Good luck with selling that!



At what point do we inform the women, girls (whatever) that their behavior can and will cause problems. Then how do you decide that this isn't something that was the point of the display to begin with. No, I guess you're right it is the disgusting behavior of the MEN. Imagine, embarrassing those innocent little females. How would they ever know they are being seductive?

First, no, that's not remotely what I was saying. You're building a strawman argument, and it's pretty silly.

Your second paragraph is dangerously close to victim-blaming. "Look at what she was wearing! She was asking for it." No. You are focusing far too much on women's dress and not nearly enough on what harassers do. Rather than telling women what they can and can't wear, or telling them that they shouldn't be "seductive" (whatever that means, and which by the way is HUGELY culturally dependent. In some places, uncovered hair is seductive. Do you really want to go down that road? 'Cause I don't.) we should be telling people that they shouldn't harass other people, whether it's by radio codes or catcalls on the street.

No, a better way to be a village and raise our children (hi Wallaby!) is to tell everyone, girls and boys and in between, that harassment is uncivilized and unacceptable. Don't focus on the victims; that way lies madness, repression, and scandalous ankle-showing.

[Goofyernmost]

First, no, that's not remotely what I was saying. You're building a strawman argument, and it's pretty silly.

Your second paragraph is dangerously close to victim-blaming. "Look at what she was wearing! She was asking for it." No. You are focusing far too much on women's dress and not nearly enough on what harassers do. Rather than telling women what they can and can't wear, or telling them that they shouldn't be "seductive" (whatever that means, and which by the way is HUGELY culturally dependent. In some places, uncovered hair is seductive. Do you really want to go down that road? 'Cause I don't.) we should be telling people that they shouldn't harass other people, whether it's by radio codes or catcalls on the street.

No, a better way to be a village and raise our children (hi Wallaby!) is to tell everyone, girls and boys and in between, that harassment is uncivilized and unacceptable. Don't focus on the victims; that way lies madness, repression, and scandalous ankle-showing.

I don't think that women should be made into objects because of what they wear, but, to totally dismiss any blame for certain attentions from the victim is also unacceptable. As for different cultures, well, I'm referring to this one. I don't really care what thing floats the boats of other cultures. We live in this culture. Are they asking for it? Probably not in any traumatic way! Does drawing more attention to oneself then necessary leave one more vulnerable to what you call "harassment". I think it does. It's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of reality.

If we are to lecture the inappropriate actions or comments from the harassers, do we at some point say to the harassed...stop putting yourself in that position? I have lived a long time and I can mention many, many women that have never been harassed in the manner because they never "advertised" in that manner. Are you saying that a woman should be able to wander about, in our culture, with breasts half (or better) exposed and butt cheeks hanging out the bottom of shorts way to short to be called modest clothing and that if a man makes a comment, they are the bad guys, and the woman is innocently being picked on. If indeed, as you say, they are totally unaware of what is going on, shouldn't someone say something to educate that individual to not be flagrantly putting themselves up as a target for harassment? There is also a definition of what constitutes harassment! What you call harassment, might not be even close for someone else. Physically attacking a female strictly because of what they wear is completely different from what we are discussing here.

In the original context of this thread why couldn't it be said that the man was minding his own business and the female, for whatever reason, was creating an uncomfortable situation for him. Can men not be a victim? Do they not have a right to express there concern over being made a victim, intentionally or not? Wouldn't you advocate a woman expressing when they felt uncomfortable? This entire situation, not just this particular one, is a two way street. Both sides need to accept responsibility for the role that they played in it.

[GaTechGal]

You shouldn't advertise what's not for sale.