A Coming of Age Story

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Amphigorey
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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by Amphigorey » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:14 pm

Goofyernmost wrote:I don't think that women should be made into objects because of what they wear, but, to totally dismiss any blame for certain attentions from the victim is also unacceptable. As for different cultures, well, I'm referring to this one. I don't really care what thing floats the boats of other cultures. We live in this culture. Are they asking for it? Probably not in any traumatic way! Does drawing more attention to oneself then necessary leave one more vulnerable to what you call "harassment". I think it does. It's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of reality.

If we are to lecture the inappropriate actions or comments from the harassers, do we at some point say to the harassed...stop putting yourself in that position? I have lived a long time and I can mention many, many women that have never been harassed in the manner because they never "advertised" in that manner. Are you saying that a woman should be able to wander about, in our culture, with breasts half (or better) exposed and butt cheeks hanging out the bottom of shorts way to short to be called modest clothing and that if a man makes a comment, they are the bad guys, and the woman is innocently being picked on. If indeed, as you say, they are totally unaware of what is going on, shouldn't someone say something to educate that individual to not be flagrantly putting themselves up as a target for harassment? There is also a definition of what constitutes harassment! What you call harassment, might not be even close for someone else. Physically attacking a female strictly because of what they wear is completely different from what we are discussing here.

In the original context of this thread why couldn't it be said that the man was minding his own business and the female, for whatever reason, was creating an uncomfortable situation for him. Can men not be a victim? Do they not have a right to express there concern over being made a victim, intentionally or not? Wouldn't you advocate a woman expressing when they felt uncomfortable? This entire situation, not just this particular one, is a two way street. Both sides need to accept responsibility for the role that they played in it.
Actually, yes, I do think that people should be able to walk down the street wearing whatever they want and not get harassed. Why is that so radical? The fault of harassment is never the recipient's. It is always the choice of the one doing the harassing; nobody's clothing ever forced anyone else to open their mouth and say something dumb. Ever.

In the case of Zazu, I never said he shouldn't have said anything. I have said from the beginning that I agree with him for saying something and getting her to stop. I disagree with his involving her sexuality (which he did, with the "you look like a woman" and "rubbing your body" lines), because it had nothing to do with the situation at hand. She wasn't harassing him; she just had too much energy and was bouncing all over the place. Therefore, I think all he should have addressed is her behavior, not her body. It's a pretty simple disagreement, and I think Zazu can take it. :)



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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by Goofyernmost » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:50 pm

Amphigorey wrote:Actually, yes, I do think that people should be able to walk down the street wearing whatever they want and not get harassed. Why is that so radical? The fault of harassment is never the recipient's. It is always the choice of the one doing the harassing; nobody's clothing ever forced anyone else to open their mouth and say something dumb. Ever.

In the case of Zazu, I never said he shouldn't have said anything. I have said from the beginning that I agree with him for saying something and getting her to stop. I disagree with his involving her sexuality (which he did, with the "you look like a woman" and "rubbing your body" lines), because it had nothing to do with the situation at hand. She wasn't harassing him; she just had too much energy and was bouncing all over the place. Therefore, I think all he should have addressed is her behavior, not her body. It's a pretty simple disagreement, and I think Zazu can take it. :)
We aren't really that far apart...but in some of the points we will just have to agree to disagree. :thumbup:


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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by GRUMPY PIRATE » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:48 pm

Amphigorey wrote:First, no, that's not remotely what I was saying. You're building a strawman argument, and it's pretty silly.

Your second paragraph is dangerously close to victim-blaming. "Look at what she was wearing! She was asking for it." No. You are focusing far too much on women's dress and not nearly enough on what harassers do. Rather than telling women what they can and can't wear, or telling them that they shouldn't be "seductive" (whatever that means, and which by the way is HUGELY culturally dependent. In some places, uncovered hair is seductive. Do you really want to go down that road? 'Cause I don't.) we should be telling people that they shouldn't harass other people, whether it's by radio codes or catcalls on the street.

No, a better way to be a village and raise our children (hi Wallaby!) is to tell everyone, girls and boys and in between, that harassment is uncivilized and unacceptable. Don't focus on the victims; that way lies madness, repression, and scandalous ankle-showing.
the problem is that it's not the people reading here that you need to worry about. its the ones that don't hear your lecture on what is civilized and uncivilized, and even if they did, they would not care.

one of the hardest jobs I have had was to interview victims of sexual assault. the biggest problem that I have seen is that many of the victims simply were not AWARE of their surrounding and did not recognise warning signs.

we would all like to think that the world is safe and anyone can go anywhere and do anything they like. sorry but that is just not reality.

Making that young girl aware that what she might think is innocent can be misconstrued by others completely differently is probably one of the greatest lessons that can be imparted with no price extracted.

stay safe.


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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by CA Screamin Dude » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:17 am

In regards to harassment, what may not be deemed violative conduct by one may be construed as a breach by another. Legal standards, especially as relates to Employment Law, have held that hostile-environment may be proven by what the perpetrated may deem "innocent behavior" which appears as anything but to the complainant. Accordingly, what may be deemed acceptable by one may be viewed as inappropriate by another.

As GRUMPY notes, this is as much an issue of situational awareness as it is a debate on common decency and standards. Certain persons may opt to act upon what these people may deem is the right to ____, whatever ____ might be, though one should never execute one own's gameplan without accounting for others'. In the end, one may feel entitled and well within convention to _____, yet that same person may stand to become a mark for having inadvertently contributed to being placed in a position of heightened attention or attraction for victimization, whether as severe as criminality or as benign as negative social interaction.

To elucidate, a person may have "the right" to park a vehicle on a public street with valuables in plain sight, and the person may choose to exercise such a right for any number of reasons... Yet the average cost of a burglary and theft from motor vehicles is $1885, with the LAPD's VCTF concluding that "objects left in plain sight, in unlocked vehicles, are a crime of opportunity for many criminals." Base economic theory specifies that as an action—lawful or otherwise—becomes more attractive, as opportunity benefit, ability and means increase, a person is more apt to commit the offense. A victim may be in "the right" to leave valuables in plain sight, but must bear in mind the greater chance of victimization due to the aforementioned concept, not to mention the $1885 opportunity cost of exercising one's "right."

In regards to clothing, this is a sentiment that has been echoed time and time again.

"If you think only of yourself, if you forget the rights and well-being of others, or, worse still, if you exploit others, ultimately you will lose." - Dalai Lama



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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by Big Wallaby » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:35 am

I actually studied the case where the Supreme Court created this precedent that your free speech may have consequences, whether you want those consequences or not. I believe the case was a man walking into a courthouse wearing a coat that had "F*** THE DRAFT" or "THE PRESIDENT" or whatever it said. The court ruled that while, of course he had the right to say and wear whatever he wanted, he should not expect free speech without consequences; consequences that were they lacking would deny any purpose to that freedom. Without consequences, there would be no power in speech, and our tongues would be useless except to taste food. In the Supreme Court case, I believe the guy got himself beat up as people were offended to action (again, one of the very purposes of free speech in my mind). And that is the power of speech, as I have used as a hypnotist for entertainment and improvement purposes. Words are very, very powerful when properly and improperly used. So to sum it up regarding freedom of speech, well, there is a great line in that movie Spider-Man.


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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by shilohmm » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:08 am

Amphigorey wrote:I think all he should have addressed is her behavior, not her body.
Second that, for a slightly different reason. Guys who address a girl's body get dismissed as dirty old men; can't dismiss comments that stick to behavior so easily. ;)
GRUMPY PIRATE wrote: one of the hardest jobs I have had was to interview victims of sexual assault. the biggest problem that I have seen is that many of the victims simply were not AWARE of their surrounding and did not recognise warning signs.
This is not a problem that can be resolved by having women pay more attention to "the warning signs" -- a fair percentage of women can't see the warning signs. According to some studies, eighty to ninety percent of women "on the spectrum" (who are autistic or have asperger's) have been sexually abused, and that's how it breaks down with my friends as well. I'll go further -- all the women I know who were sexually abused either had major family problems (abuse), or they're on the spectrum, or both. Either they have learned to ignore the warning signs in order to function in their daily life (abuse), or they haven't yet learned to decode the warning signs. That's one reason why I think the rape rate will only go down when guys are held accountable and taught to treat women with respect (although separating sexual conquest from gaining status would sure help!).

Teen girls also dismiss the "asking for it" routine because it's so fluid -- when I was in high school, a judge dismissed a rape because the victim was "dressed provocatively"; she was wearing a long-sleeved turtleneck and jeans, a standard outfit at the time. A friend of mine who was raped was blamed because she dressed too conservatively -- "You had to know that wearing a long skirt and long sleeves to a party would make every man there want to see what was under them." Girls dismiss "asking for it" for the same reason that a lot of them learn to ignore "slut" -- it's a word used against the victimized or powerless or despised, that tells you nothing about the person's actual behavior.

Pressing against other people in line is rude, whatever the sex of the other person; telling someone it's wrong because it might cause a sexual reaction takes the focus off of the real problem and the actual wrongdoing. She needs to learn some self-control, and the fact that her actions might be turning on some guy has nothing to do with that need. Why change the issue from dealing with her own impatience and inconsideration into considering some unknown male's equally unknown feelings?



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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by felinefan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:56 pm

What shocks me is that there are judges that obviously failed basic biology. One judge dismissed rape as a cause of pregnancy because he said that during a rape, "the juices didn't flow." :eek: Recently--it was either another judge, an attorney, or a politician--who made a similar remark. And Dr. Phil had a guest on his show that insisted that people get STDs because they're afraid. WHAT PLANET ARE THESE PEOPLE FROM???? :abduct: Any judge who blames a woman for being raped has no business being a judge; judges are supposed to be impartial, and that's not being impartial. Rape is a hate crime against women, plain and simple.


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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by GRUMPY PIRATE » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:59 pm

shilohmm wrote:Second that, for a slightly different reason. Guys who address a girl's body get dismissed as dirty old men; can't dismiss comments that stick to behavior so easily. ;)



This is not a problem that can be resolved by having women pay more attention to "the warning signs" -- a fair percentage of women can't see the warning signs. According to some studies, eighty to ninety percent of women "on the spectrum" (who are autistic or have asperger's) have been sexually abused, and that's how it breaks down with my friends as well. I'll go further -- all the women I know who were sexually abused either had major family problems (abuse), or they're on the spectrum, or both. Either they have learned to ignore the warning signs in order to function in their daily life (abuse), or they haven't yet learned to decode the warning signs. That's one reason why I think the rape rate will only go down when guys are held accountable and taught to treat women with respect (although separating sexual conquest from gaining status would sure help!).

Teen girls also dismiss the "asking for it" routine because it's so fluid -- when I was in high school, a judge dismissed a rape because the victim was "dressed provocatively"; she was wearing a long-sleeved turtleneck and jeans, a standard outfit at the time. A friend of mine who was raped was blamed because she dressed too conservatively -- "You had to know that wearing a long skirt and long sleeves to a party would make every man there want to see what was under them." Girls dismiss "asking for it" for the same reason that a lot of them learn to ignore "slut" -- it's a word used against the victimized or powerless or despised, that tells you nothing about the person's actual behavior.

Pressing against other people in line is rude, whatever the sex of the other person; telling someone it's wrong because it might cause a sexual reaction takes the focus off of the real problem and the actual wrongdoing. She needs to learn some self-control, and the fact that her actions might be turning on some guy has nothing to do with that need. Why change the issue from dealing with her own impatience and inconsideration into considering some unknown male's equally unknown feelings?
That study seems to be a specific target group subject matter.

And quite truthfully, it IS a matter of having the women pay attention to warning signs.

When to make a decision to leave the party, or to go someplace with a friend, and to TELL someone your schedule if you are going somewhere alone. Like I have heard some of the seminar officers tell the classes, you don't have to be paranoid, but it can sure help.

the majority of information I read is a result of victim/witness/perpertrator interviews. and THAT information is used in awareness classes that are taught at various college campuses and awareness clinics.

most of them DON"T address style or dressing, ALL address being aware of your surroundings and how to make smart choices.

some of the seminars I have attended include not only law enforcement and prosecuters, and include judges. and most are very aware of the problems encountered in these cases.


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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by shilohmm » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:02 pm

GRUMPY PIRATE wrote: When to make a decision to leave the party, or to go someplace with a friend, and to TELL someone your schedule if you are going somewhere alone. Like I have heard some of the seminar officers tell the classes, you don't have to be paranoid, but it can sure help.
Well, sure, anyone can learn that kind of stuff (depending on the criteria for when to leave a party), and I have no quarrel with that sort of thing. But that isn't what most people mean when they say "warning signs" -- they're talking about social cues, which are a lot harder to read and much more subjective. Remember that the grand majority of rapes are never reported, and there's a fair bit of evidence that women are much more likely to report rapes the less they know the perpetrator. The rapes most official organizations are dealing with are a small subset of what's really going on.

I've known over two dozen women IRL who were raped -- the only one who went to the cops was also the only one stranger raped. I'm pretty sure that's how it usually works -- the better the girl know the guy, the less likely she is to report him. It's the women who are raped by guys they know pretty well who're blamed for missing warning signs that are a lot more subtle than the guy trying to get you alone when you just met/are drunk, etc. I'm not counting online pals (even if I've met them IRL after meeting them online), but the evidence there is the same. The advice you're recommending is useful and valid, but it simply doesn't address what's going on a lot of the time. It's great with situational rapists, who exploit or try to create the opportunity to rape whoever, but not so great when we're talking Uncle Alvie, lifelong friend or relative who has decided you're old enough to "seduce" now; or your boyfriend, who believes you have an obligation to put out after x-number of months; etc. When someone you're already involved with decides to (from their perspective) "change the nature of the relationship a bit", the warning signs are a lot more subtle. And those are the warning signs that the women I've known get accused of missing. That, or she sent him the wrong signal, but one way or another, she's at fault for his behavior.

That's another reason I will continue to argue that guys have to take responsibility for what they do. So long as society blames the woman and lets the guy off, nothing is really going to change except maybe the identity of the victims. Which is no small accomplishment if you prevent someone you love and care about from being victimized, but sending the guy off to find more vulnerable or less informed prey is not really a long-term solution.



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Re: A Coming of Age Story

Post by hhsrat » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:27 pm

shilohmm wrote: That's another reason I will continue to argue that guys have to take responsibility for what they do. So long as society blames the woman and lets the guy off, nothing is really going to change except maybe the identity of the victims. Which is no small accomplishment if you prevent someone you love and care about from being victimized, but sending the guy off to find more vulnerable or less informed prey is not really a long-term solution.
The impression I get from reading this post is that you seem to believe that every rape is a male forcing himself on a female, which is pretty offensive to males in general, especially males that are not rapists. A quick check of dictionary.com yields this definition: "any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person." I don't see anything there about the gender of the rapist, or the gender of the victim.


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